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Post by Scruffy Brooky on Dec 29, 2010 10:54:23 GMT
I seem to recall that Shani Oates the current maid of The Clan Of Tubal Cain suggests a link between Goda and Godiva in her book Tubelo's Green Fire. I shall have to look it out to provide more details... or admit to my mind playing tricks on me whichever applies!
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Post by Scruffy Brooky on Dec 29, 2010 14:29:31 GMT
And, what do you think about the idea of entering one of the local carnivals? There several small carnivals in the area, such as Southam and Bulkington, and others. Wouldn't that be an interesting group task, that would involve everyone? I'm not actually advocating it, but I'm simply interested to hear everyone's views. Personally I can't see that happening. I would support other people doing it if they wanted to but I stuck my neck out enough with the interview. Anyone who wanted to give me grief based on that needed to go to the effort of contacting me (no-one gave me grief by the way). Taking part in a carnival makes the participants an easy target if there is anyone present who is uncomfortable with Paganism. I actually think it's bordering evangelising (an issue you brought up in connection with my interview). My rationale is that a new group of any sort is local news, therefore by definition its ok to raise awareness through a local newspaper. A carnival does not have the same raison d'etre as a newspaper, and to hijack a carnival for our own agenda seems wrong to me. From a creative perspective, how do you present Paganism as entertaining enough for a float without trivialising our practices, ritual items and ritual dress? I would feel much more comfortable with taking part in a Pagan Pride event. The parade through London sometimes gets national press coverage, and if anyone wanted to do this, for example with a banner, the local press could again be notified. I also believe there is a more local Pagan Pride Parade (Nottingham?). Admittedly this loses the local connection of your original post Rob. For me enough people know about Rugby Pagans now for it to grow satisfactorily by word of mouth and by the local and national internet and media adverts I have agreed. My neck has been wound in (unless such a time occurs as the group is struggling for members again to the point of me sitting own my own in The Raglan). As stated above though if others want to do this because they feel it would be helpful and / or fun I will support in anyway I can.
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sol
Earth Dreamer
Posts: 31
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Post by sol on Dec 30, 2010 10:25:51 GMT
I agree with both viewpoints here. Perhaps there are other positive ways of exploring the whole Godiva arena from a local pagan perspective. It is a shame to miss such a blatant gift placed right in our hands, Godiva IS known about worldwide, and most people would not, I think, consider her as a living symbol of the Godess. If anyone is ever going to do something in this area it would be the local pagan group. That would be us.
I think you are on to something exciting here Robur, well done for bringing it to the table so to speak, but where to go with it now?
Sol
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Post by Scruffy Brooky on Dec 30, 2010 10:58:40 GMT
Your aims are honourable but in my opinion unrealistic.
Yes there's a good chance that if we dug deep enough we would find Pagan origins in local festivals, but this raises all sorts of relevant points and questions. The one's that stand out in my mind are:
1. A festival with ancient Pagan roots that still exists today exists in a time where the majority of people are not Pagan. The festival has organically evolved over many years into something quite different from its roots. Paganism as I practice it respects evolution, in the natural world and within Paganism itself in response to the natural world. Why not respect evolution in terms of the social landscape? 2. If Pagans take an aggressive stance when it comes to reclaiming anything that has Pagan roots, where do we draw the line? Do we start demolishing the oldest churches in the country as they were built on ancient Pagan sites? 3. I'd query how ancient the roots of modern Paganism truly are. Of course the intention to honour nature is ancient, the Ancients living from the land either by hunting or by working it were so reliant on nature that its worship was the obvious logical thing to do. I see little evidence that modern practices have any real antiquity in terms of what Ancient British people would have done. This is because I see little evidence for Gardner, Sanders or Cochrane's assertions to having been part of a coven/family tradition prior to their respective streams of witchcraft having been established. This calls into question our connection with ancient Pagans and ancient festivals and therefore our right to do any reclaiming. 4. Who are we reclaiming for? To take your example of Southam. As far as I am aware we have one member from Southam. I am prepared to stand corrected by the member in question, but I suspect it may be a rather lonely and futile carnival if only one person is interested. 5. While the membership are free to make what they will of Rugby Pagans (and majority must rule), I started it as a social organisation not a protest group.
I am sorry that you feel that no-one seems to care. I do care and you're right to point out that this is a local Pagan tradtion of some importance. It is a matter of historical interest, especially to the members of this group. If we see the time in our lifetimes when the interest is no longer historical, because Paganism is once again the majority religion in Britain then I will be 100% behind you. At the moment I accept Paganism's current role on the margins of society as a minority religion, and do not think it the right thing to do to force it into the public consciousness with a crowbar!
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Post by Scruffy Brooky on Dec 30, 2010 11:14:19 GMT
If anyone is ever going to do something in this area it would be the local pagan group. That would be us. I think if we do do something to this end it would be courteous to ask Coventry Earth Spirit to be involved, since they are a moot / open ritual group from Coventry itself.
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sol
Earth Dreamer
Posts: 31
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Post by sol on Dec 30, 2010 11:32:36 GMT
Easy there Rich! "Your aims are honourable but unrealistic" We haven't offered any aims. Sol
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Post by Scruffy Brooky on Dec 30, 2010 11:40:23 GMT
Easy there Rich! "Your aims are honourable but unrealistic" We haven't offered any aims. Sol I started writing that before your reply sol, but finished it after you had replied. To clarify the opening line refers to both the idea of entering into a local carnival and the proposal "we ought really to reclaim all these festivals". For the reasons I went on to set out I do think reclaiming festivals that have been Christianised/secularised is unrealistic. It's just my opinion.
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Post by Scruffy Brooky on Dec 30, 2010 13:34:12 GMT
Let me be clear. I think Rob's post is great for bringing to our attention the links between the Godiva story and the Goddess, and between the Godiva procession and the love-chase.
I am all in favour of doing something to reclaim the ideas amongst ourselves, I just think that for me, it needs to be much more subtle than reclaiming an existing festival, and certainly than the tongue in cheek float in a carnival.
Also I repeat that, as people from outside Coventry however local, if there is any chance of publicity (planned or unplanned) from the iconic symbol of Coventry, we must invite Coventry Earth Spirit to be involved if they wish.
I think its a very good idea in these terms.
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sol
Earth Dreamer
Posts: 31
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Post by sol on Dec 30, 2010 16:24:59 GMT
Oh right. I agree
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Post by Scruffy Brooky on Dec 31, 2010 9:03:02 GMT
This task has been given to us. Certainly Earth Spirit may be consulted and involved. They can even provide their own lady and a horse if they'd like to. But this is not just about Coventry. To clarify what is "This task" and how do you intend to fulfil it? Are you wanting to do the carnival float, something more subtle outside of the carnival or simply raise awareness? This is important both from the point of view of whether I, and I guess others will want to participate. It is also important from the point of view of what I am telling others on your behalf, for example we have members at the moot who certainly don't have logins here, although maybe they browse as guests, I do not know. Scruffy, are you actually going to contact Earth Spirit and get some feeback and a response from them? I have always said that this group is owned by the current membership of the moment, and if someone wants to organise something I will do all I can to help facilitate it. I will gladly contact Coventry Earth Spirit in this regard, and report back here, when I have the answers to the above questions. I feel this contact is important because while to us Godiva is not all about Coventry, to the general public she is. If you go for something as mass appeal as a carnival and get any sort of publicity off the back of it, Earth Spirit are likely to feel put out. It is also a good way for us to let them know of our presence and create a link with them which could be mutually beneficial.
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Post by watergypsy on Dec 31, 2010 23:59:42 GMT
Rah! That's alot of posts! Forgive me if I miss anything, well to start with, sorry about my silence of late, christmas and yule and family, oh my! - first night I've had to myself. Erm... I have to ask why Rob? If Godiva was orginally based on an ancient pagan festival, you feel the need to reclaim it as a modern pagan? And how would you sugguest doing such a thing without offending/ruining/upsetting the day for folks who have gone to a procession led and i would imagine organised by members of the clergy. I should imagine that if the monks hadn't changed it as you say, it wouldn't have survived to the modern day. So you kinda have to be a little grateful to them for having the imagination to not just stamp it out, which if I have understood your posts correctly has pretty much happened across the country? I have never been to the parade, but I should imagine that it's quite an event, people laughing, enjoying themselves and having fun. I dissagree with your statement that no-one cares, if they didn't there wouldn't be a procession, because no-one would bother to organise it. I am also sorry that disagree with you other statement "If you think about it, as historical fact(!? it's a legend from a long time ago), the story (yes story) about taxes makes no sense at all. What ruler would reduce taxes if his wife rode round town naked? It's a ridiculous idea." - as history teaches rulers are not always fair and wise (it's alot nicer than beheading her). He was an earl. so therefore born (or killed someone) into/for the position, he may have been a complete fool with an unhappy marriage and a wife he hated but couldn't divorce because of his station and the social stigma. So was creul in anyway he could be. You don't such things, so don't write it off as rediculous... (I found that a little offensive) find it hard to believe or be pessimistic about it's truth. But then it's a legend anyway, meant to be taken with a pinch of salt! Oh I don't know. I love that it dates back to pre history and in whatever form has continued throughout time, it makes me warm that our land is old and that these things survive through generations. Our local customs and history are rich and I believe we should be celebrating them as they are now, to what they have evolved to be and as individuals see them through our own eyes and enjoy them in that way. If that makes any sense??
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Post by robur on Jan 1, 2011 5:59:16 GMT
Thanks for taking the trouble to express your feelings.
I don't do argumention. It gets nowhere. So I'm not going pick up on the negative things you say.
If you're happy with things as they are, and think we should do nothing, that's perfectly fine.
It's much better to have said how you feel, than to have said nothing.
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Post by summerstorm on Jan 3, 2011 0:49:21 GMT
I personally wouldn't feel comfortable informing and educating people about something that I am not sure about myself... The theory the Godiva story has its origins in paganism is an interesting one, but it is only a theory. In fact even if i were sure it was historical fact i don't personally feel the need to share it with others by way of a public statment...a float in a carnival seems a little in your face to me. Rob, i think you said in a previous post this task has been given to us (presumably you mean to raise awareness) well i personally don't feel this is a task that has been given to me but good luck with it all.
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Post by robur on Jan 3, 2011 7:13:30 GMT
Thanks Summer,
That's exactly the sort of reply I was looking for, although I was actually hoping that a few more people might agree with me.
This doesn't necessarily mean a float. That was just the first thing that came into my mind. There are lots of other ways of going about things.
I'm just interested in getting a feel for where each individual person stands.
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Post by Scruffy Brooky on Jan 4, 2011 9:54:28 GMT
I was actually hoping that a few more people might agree with me. In terms of the fact that it is important and significance that we have local traditions to honour the Goddess, in terms of Godiva, then personally I do very much agree with you. Its just a little delicate how we go about it.
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