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Post by Scruffy Brooky on Dec 14, 2010 22:22:09 GMT
Thanks for this post I am very interested in reading this article! I don't consider myself to be Wiccan but as an eclectic in the times I have been practicing in it is almost impossible to remain uninfluenced. I have read Witchcraft Today and The Meaning Of Witchcraft, both good reads regardless of one's view on the content. I have also read one of Philip Hesselton's books detailing the life of Garner, (Wiccan Roots?). 1. Ronald Hutton says that there is still doubt, and according to Hutton, the only way to find out would be to go back and ask Gardner.... 2a. Pagainism is a vast subject, of which Gardner is a tiny, and possibly faulty, component. 2b. There are more authentic Celtic traditions, living Native American Indian beliefs, Greek Mystery religions, religions of the far East - India and China, Ancient Egypt, even the patriarchal Qabbalah. 3. The fact that this Ronald Hutton article has turned up, right now, and will be printed in next months BBC History magazine is a timely coincidence. It means something. 1. I have been making this point, as a lone voice, at a particular moot for approximately 2 years now! 2a. Whether or not you regard him as faulty depends on your personal stance regarding point 1. 2b. Whether or not you acknowledge paths as more authentic depends on Hutton's unknowable truth behind point 1. i.e. Whether the roots of Wicca are genuinely traced back a substantial period of time. (Personally I doubt it, but there is always extra difficulty in proving a negative). 3. I agree completely and I await with great interest. Thanks again. I would otherwise have missed this article altogether!
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Post by Scruffy Brooky on Jan 24, 2011 12:02:45 GMT
Isn't it interesting how life works?!
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tim
Earth Dreamer
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Post by tim on Jan 31, 2011 20:10:38 GMT
Rob,
There may be a personal coincidence for me here although like Richard I am not a Wiccan. Do you know where abouts in the New Forest the coven was based? I have only read a little about Gardner and the only location mentioned is Christchurch which is not in the New Forest.
The reason I ask is that we have chosen to have our handfasting in the New Forest and are having the celebration in Sway, on the edge of the forest itself. We had decided on this before I knew of any association.
It would be interesting to learn more, we will be down there for two weeks and I'd be interested to visit relevant locations if they are known.
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Post by Scruffy Brooky on Jan 31, 2011 23:10:55 GMT
Gardner's time in the New Forest was inspired partly by the idea of naturism, supposedly on doctor's orders, and partly to protect a collection of weapons he had amassed on his travels, from the blitz. Apparently the only place in the country where he had (according to some sources naturist) friends was the New Forest. The New Forest Club was a naturist club opened in 1934, 4 years before Gardner's move there. Such Clubs were few and far between in those times. The location of the club was "Forest View", West Moors, Dorset. It later moved in 1936 to Rushford Warren, Mudeford - on the shores of Christchurch Harbour. Gardner and wife Donna were members of the club before they moved to Highcliffe in 1938, this is why it is assumed the friends who drew them there were naturists. The club was bombed in September 1940 and never re-opened. A local point of interest for those with an interest in Witchcraft is The Rufus Stone, Canterton, near the Village of Brook (nothing to do with me). It is a three sided metal pillar inscribed with a story about an arrow being shot at a stag but in fact struck King William II (surnamed Rufus) and killed him instantly. He was placed on a cart and drawn to Winchester Cathedral to be buried. It has been speculated that this was in fact a ritual killing of the Divine King and that Rufus was both openly Pagan and a willing victim. St Catherine's Hill in Christchurch has Pagan associations due to a legend involving Christchurch Priory. Apparently the low lying abbey was blamed for instanced of rheumatism among the monks.They resolved to move it to the top of the hill. Each night every stone that was moved up there was moved back, by persons unknown. Gardner's house was called "Southridge" on the corner of Highland Avenue and Elphinstone Road in Highcliffe. He moved in July, or August 1938. Gardner had a Sun Lounge added to the house to indulge his and hsi friends naturist activities, which thanks to *cough* observant neighbours warranted a humourous short in the Christchurch Times. Gardner began attending the Rosicrucian Order Crotona Fellowship at Ashrama Hall, Somerford near Christchurch. It was through this that Gardner contentiously claims to have met the people who introduced him to the Craft. Dorothy Clutterbuck, who, as the story goes was High Priestess of the New Forest Coven and by other's accounts, initiated Gardner (he himself never said as much in his published writings) owned three houses in the Highcliffe area, Mill House, Latimers and Amberwood Farm. The latter was a working farm, on the face of it her ownership of this property was purely for financial reasons. This is an unlikely venue for Gardner's initiation. Ronald Hutton asserts that Latimers was apparently the initiation venue. The well repected Wiccan authors Stewart and Janet Farrarr indicated that it was in fact Mill House. - If you can track down anything like addresses for these (I confess I haven't tried) these are likely to be high on your "to visit" list I imagine. Hope this helps! *Ducks fearfully awaiting the wrath of Marcus!!!*
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marcus
Earth Dreamer
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Post by marcus on Feb 24, 2011 17:23:19 GMT
How could I have missed this thread! Actually I think the history of Wicca is one of those things which has been discussed to death - I'm convinced by most of Hutton's work in this. Gardner was an odd kind of genius but annoyingly he was also a fantasist who spun and lied to appear more mysterious and interesting. I never understood why - Gardner on his own merits, is a fascinating man ahead of his times. Then again, everybody talks about Gardner but less about Ross Nichols who contributed just as much to "modern paganism" since they actually worked together on a lot of the rituals which now are so common place. a story about an arrow being shot at a stag but in fact struck King William II (surnamed Rufus) and killed him instantly. He was placed on a cart and drawn to Winchester Cathedral to be buried. It has been speculated that this was in fact a ritual killing of the Divine King and that Rufus was both openly Pagan and a willing victim. It's a good story but I don't think it rings true. William II was the son of William the Bastard (or Conquerer) who was a devout Christian (and in fact acquired the Pope's blessing for his invasion of England). The Normans by then were famously devout Christians - if also ones with a reputation for being ruthless warriors. Given all that - the idea that William's son was a pagan king who self-sacrificed seems to me to be too far fetched. William II's brother (Robert Curthose) joined the first crusade. In order to raise money to fund his private army he sold his Duchy of Normandy to William ii for a substantial sum - which William II raised through heavy taxation across England - which was deeply unpopular ... Then William II goes hunting and is killed by a stray arrow. Perhaps it was murder. The chronicle at the time suggests most regarded it as an accident/act of God - because William II was a bad king (due to the taxes). Anyway at least - it's certainly recounted in Christian, not Pagan terms. You know what I'm going to say: Clutterbuck appeared to be a devout Anglo-Christian who left all her estate to the Anglican church. She was a well known figure and maybe Gardner used her name as an elaborate joke or perhaps to misdirect people from his real sources. Who knows? I'm with Hutton on this one - I doubt she had anything to do with Wicca. Gardner mentions Clutterbuck (and calls her Old Dorothy) but Valientie suggested she was the actual High Priestess. This bit confuses me since I always regarded Valientie as a far more believable figure than Gardner - yet there's another story that they used Clutterbuck simply because Valientie was able to access her birth and death certificates. Who knows ... Marcus
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Post by Scruffy Brooky on Feb 25, 2011 9:19:24 GMT
My answer was mostly sourced from Philip Heselton's "Wiccan Roots".
It's not necessarily what I do or don't believe. I don't regard myself as Wiccan and therefore adopt an approach Bill Bailey refers to as "relaxed empiricism". My interest isn't sufficient to sustain going to great lengths to find out for myself. I just take onboard opinions from people who reportedly do know what they're on about and recycle them.
Nonetheless the sites mentioned are the ones reportedly linked to Witchcraft and the beginnings of Wicca, that one might wish to visit if in the area.
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marcus
Earth Dreamer
Posts: 14
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Post by marcus on Feb 25, 2011 19:52:40 GMT
My answer was mostly sourced from Philip Heselton's "Wiccan Roots". Which is an excellent book - at least in terms of the amount of new research Heselton did. The problem is that the evidence isn't as strong as he makes out (and worse - he has this funny habit of finishing one chapter with "it might be the case but we can't know for sure" and starting the next with "as was shown definitely in the last chapter ..." (I paraphrase ...) I think this is because Heselton is a Wiccan himself so wants to believe the evidence backs up Gardner's and Valientie's claims so before he did any research, his mind was already made up. That's why I think - perversely - it's far easier to research the history of Wicca if you're an outsider to Wicca/Trad Witchcraft yourself and it's a fascinating history with some amazing characters. Sometimes I wish I had a chance to meet them. and Yup - i'd also like to visit these places too (even though I'm a skeptic on most of the standard history) Marcus
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Post by Scruffy Brooky on Feb 28, 2011 16:38:33 GMT
I guess that raises the question of what makes a good historical secondary source. An "objective" (I am not sure that true objectivity exists) one that tries to weigh up various alternatives, or a subjective one that presents one of these alternatives in all its partisan glory and demands that te reader discern as appropriate.
The trouble with Paganism is there is a definite lack of balance. It seems to me you are either Pagan or that you think of Pagans as a bunch of loonies in a field. This translates into the writing in that histories tend to be by Pagans for Pagans, or by non-Pagans for other people that think we're nutters.
One note about this. Traditional Witchcraft is entirely seperate from Wicca indeed many Traditional Witches would not consider themselves Pagan at all. This is also relevant as per your previous answer. A Traditional Witch, such as a HPS of a coven in the New Forest, might have no issue with leaving their money to the church. Even if they did have such a problem, pre 1951 and the repeal of The Witchcraft Act a legal document (a will) stating your support of the church might be a very cute political move.
I state again I am neither Wiccan nor Traditional Witch and so am not the best informed on such things, but it is a bit of fun! I really was only after listing the New Forest sites of reported interest ahead of Tim's visit, as best I know them.
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